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some questions before buying

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some questions before buying
« on: August 23, 2016, 11:14:22 AM »
hi!
i am restructuring my hardware setup and thinking of either getting a digital mixer or an ios solution
before buying i have a couple of questions:

1. will the app work with my focusrite scarlett 18i20 including an adat converter?
2. will i be able to use midi from the interface as well and if so could I for example use an octatrack to send midi into aum triggering a synth plugin like isem for example
3. does the app offer snapshots, fading between those and midi control (i had a digital yamaha mixer ages ago and used those features for live performances) so that i could Play live and have different mixer Settings which i Switch in between using midi commands
4. is it possible to sidechain compressors?
5. i read no Support for midi clock :( I can understand that someone might want to split from this old and really Buggy Technology but electronic Music instruments usually use this protocol to sync between each other and with a suitable sync device (like a erm multiclock for example) it should be possible to get a relieable sync in between hard and Software.
so what  would be the way to sync to external gear? use a midiclock to link app and sync to link?
i want to jam with my hardware, mix on the ipad and record for later track production (in live on my mac) , i read you can record perfectly synced / looping loops. how would i do this if my external gear is synced to a midi clock signal coming from a dedicated clock generator?
how stable is the app? live situation stable?

cheers, jens

thanks for helping
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 09:42:40 PM by Yentz Jensus »

Re: some questions before buying
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2016, 11:14:38 AM »
Hi,

1. yes that should work: https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-gb/articles/206849159-Connecting-your-Scarlett-interface-to-an-iPad
2. yes
3. no
4. there's no built-in sidechain compressor, but you can use one instance of my app AUFX:Push for sidechain compression inside AUM
5. use the Link to MIDI app to generate a MIDI clock. Future versions of AUM will also send MIDI clock (for syncing external hardware), but not receive it. You could also use my app SECTOR and have it send MIDI clock in sync with AUM's host transport.

Yes, the record function is quantized to multiples of a configurable beat duration. It syncs to the transport clock in AUM, which in turn can be kept in sync with Link.

I would say the app is very stable, even though software on an iOS device can never be as stable as single-purpose digital hardware (like a yamaha digital mixer, etc).  There's always other factors outside the currently running app that can mess things up: other apps, iOS itself, etc.

Cheers
/Jonatan

hi!
i am restructuring my hardware setup and thinking of either getting a digital mixer or an ios solution
before buying i have a couple of questions:

1. will the app work with my focusrite scarlett 18i20 including an adat converter?
2. will i be able to use midi from the interface as well and if so could I for example use an octatrack to send midi into aum triggering a synth plugin like isem for example
3. does the app offer snapshots, fading between those and midi control (i had a digital yamaha mixer ages ago and used those features for live performances) so that i could Play live and have different mixer Settings which i Switch in between using midi commands
4. is it possible to sidechain compressors?
5. i read no Support for midi clock :( I can understand that someone might want to split from this old and really Buggy Technology but electronic Music instruments usually use this protocol to sync between each other and with a suitable sync device (like a erm multiclock for example) it should be possible to get a relieable sync in between hard and Software.
so what  would be the way to sync to external gear? use a midiclock to link app and sync to link?
i want to jam with my hardware, mix on the ipad and record for later track production (in live on my mac) , i read you can record perfectly synced / looping loops. how would i do this if my external gear is synced to a midi clock signal coming from a dedicated clock generator?
how stable is the app? live situation stable?

cheers, jens

thanks for helping

Re: some questions before buying
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2016, 12:13:26 PM »
thanks for your answer.
Hmm not receiveing midi clock is a pitty. lots of more professionally orientated electronic music producers work with clock generators like the acme ( http://www.s-n-d.com/acme4e_b.html ) or erm (http://www.e-rm.de/multiclock) which deliver 100% jitter free and stable clock. I would not want to rely on a clock generated by the ipad (i am happy to be proven wrong) also do the clock generators allow shuffling as well as mixing midi data from midi in into the midi out which then sends the clock as well as midi data.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 12:27:45 PM by Yentz Jensus »

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crony

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Re: some questions before buying
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2016, 02:10:09 PM »
Wow, 840 € for a clock...Must be stable, for sure :D
At the beginning, I was also disappointed about the midi clock into AUM, but I must say this :
-AUM is really stable...
-I use Modstep as a master clock, and thru IAA to AUM (that also catch Link perfectly) it delivers quite a nice stable clock. Surely not as accurate as the ACME 4, but my 3 iPads pro + minova + beatstep (the swing, swings, and the steps are in place, and it's not the pro version) + 2 midi interfaces,  and 2 other midi controllers without clock, runs quite smoothly.

I'm not sure, finally, AUM has to handle that...And if it affect stability with other devices, I must say I finally don't want it...I hope it will be possible to disable it.
As I said, if you use AUM as a hub for all your apps, a step sequencer, or a sequencer outside the app should provide a good clock.

AMHO, if you want to have a pure clean clock, you might consider use one iPad just for this. (or almost only that app)
The ACME 4 does one thing perfectly for 840 €, I guess an iPad 1/2/3/4 with a good midi interface should do the same job for 1/4 of the price...
You might consider a Beatstep pro also...
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 02:17:02 PM by crony »

Re: some questions before buying
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2016, 05:40:24 PM »
no question that a clock generated from the ipad can be good or better say a sync signal can be perfect. the problem is that my studio and lots of others run midi clock to sync several pieces of hardware (also old stuff which uses a sync signal from before midi).
Incooperating aum in my setup would be awesome and I can see myself using it just for mixing but without the sync recording loops is quite difficult if those don't start with a hit on the 1.0 and there is no way to change my whole setup just becuase of one software.
I suppose I can just jam on the ipad and once I have the patterns etc. switch to live (plug the usb cable into my mac) and do a multi recording there.
hey wait.
no. aum can playback .wav, right?
cool. I can just use this as trigger to generate the clock from there. the erm has an audio input it can sync to either using a vst plugin or a wav file with a sync signal.
yeah. problem solved :)

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crony

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Re: some questions before buying
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2016, 06:26:45 PM »
Wow ! I remember some dj looper that could sync audio with midi (a British device, can't remember the name of it) but I couldn't think about a clock doing that...
You do own a multiclock ? Sounds cool :)


You might be interested in this (to measure latency, and have a "solid" internal clock)
http://www.audeonic.com/midibus/

I personally get 0.15 ms of latency from Modstep's clock to the Beatstep (thru USB). Don't know if it's so high, but, at the moment, seems in sync :)

« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 06:48:41 PM by crony »

Re: some questions before buying
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2016, 10:01:46 PM »
It is not the offset. every device has that. midi clock generated by a computer has jitter.
as far as i know all professional clock gens use either internally generated signals or get a signal through an audio input. other than midi signals the audio has a very high priority when being processed by a computer so jitter and the resulting timing problems are 0.
i never cared about that until i had hardware with integrated sequencers. it can drive you mad when recording into live and you see that the timing is off. especially when using shuffle where a audioquantization is out of question.
the acme is ridicolously expensive and also the erm is but i bought one to solve this annoying problem.
not sure if this will happen in hardware but if the manufacturers were moving on to a proper sync protocol (not sure if link is the one as it doesnt do start & stop & position) it would be a huge step. but until then and also when using old hardware (which unfortunately sounds really good and cant be replaced easily) midi clock is something you have to deal with.... .
Hope I will get some time off everything at the weekend - so busy  right now :( - so I can buy the app and try the ins and outs. I am confident that using the sync .wav in a loop player will do the trick.
Really excited.

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Re: some questions before buying
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2016, 06:15:32 AM »
Hmm, all I can say is that the dev of Midibus is pretty proud of his clock, and seems one of the most accurate app doing that. And it indeed does only one thing...

I just see that it can also be mapped and has tap tempo :)
http://audeonic.boards.net/thread/297/converting-cc-0xfa-0xfc-midibus
Funny, I didn't remeber doing this post, and remeber how I gave up IOS music 2 years ago, because all ecosystem was not ready yet...
http://audeonic.boards.net/thread/131/start-stop-on-station-keyboard

What I actually do is having the start/stop button of Modstep assigned to a midi pad, so Modstep generates the master the clock, Modstep is in sync to IAA, and AUM manage IAA and Link...
So while I click on that pad, Modstep starts, launch his clock, and on an other pad (assigned by midi learn into AUM), I can start/stop IAA, which controls Link as well.
It works quite well.
Instead of using a wav, you might have a simple IAA or Link app launched in AUM ( I don't know if you want to record into AUM external gears or internal synths...) let's say Modstep, and Modstep would be slaved to your ACME...

I will try again with Midibus as master clock to see if it's better than the Modstep's clock... :)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 06:36:32 AM by crony »

Re: some questions before buying
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2016, 06:41:07 AM »
looked this up online.
they claim to have a jitter free clock.
if so this would be awesome. It won't take long until apps like acme or multiclock appear allowing for sending jitterfree clock through evey interface you want (there are interfaces with 8 outs).
i could think of so many things you could incooperate in such an app.
sending just one clock isnt going to do the trick as every hardware with an internal sequencer has a different offset. so sending to a machinedrum needs another offset than sending to an electribe for example. if there is just one stream of midi clock you wont be able to sync the boxes using a midi splitter.

not sure if this means it is about time to sell my multiclock before the prices drop...
anyway. gonny buy aum now and setup my studio around it at the weekend :)
will try different settings and report how it goes.
really excited :)

ohh one last question - why aren't there any snapshots? when doing something live it would be so cool if this was possible so the mixing stuff could just be controlled by my octatrack sending program changes to the ipad running aum which then switches the setting. obviously adding or removing modules would make the sound skip but I am probably going to keep things simple anyway. eq, compressor, some send effects and maybe some limiting on the master.

edit: just bought the app. really looking forward to the weekend :)

edit 2: having another thread regarding this topic on elektronauts. how would i record in sync? lets say the app and my hardware run in sync. how can i record so the start and endpoint of the file will be synced and where do i record?

edit 3: sorry questions keep popping up... is there an overview of how much you can do with what generation of ipad? can i do a 16 / 4 configuration with 3 band eq on every channel and compressor on the 4 subgroups on an ipad 4?

also thanks for your answers and the Support from the developer. if this does what i hope it will i might think of getting a new ipad for that attach that to my behringer bcr2000 and i have an awesome solution. so excited....
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 07:49:53 AM by Yentz Jensus »

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Re: some questions before buying
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2016, 09:10:09 AM »
Is a different offset means a different sysex ? If so, midibridge and midiflow allows remapping of midi messages to an other...(CC or PC or note or Sysex to a different CC, PC, or Sysex) and on any multi or single midi outputs !

For the snapshots, if I understand, you mean presets into AUM loading thru program change, right ?
Maybe in the futur...
What I do now is loading each pipe in AUM, name them properly with their midi channel + name of the app, then save.
Then I just delete the apps I don't want to use, (the inputs) but I keep the pipes, then save to a new preset.
Like this you can test, because you'll want to add too much apps and effects...That's the excitement part that says "OMG it's working, what if I add one more ???" then at some point it crash, then you'll get pissed with the glitches etc...
My advice : proceed step by step...

Second question : that's the beauty of IAA/Link in AUM , select the channels you want to record, then press record on top of AUM, it will record from the beginning of a cycle, then you stop, it will stop at the end of a cycle.
Now you have all your wav loops that you may export into your Octatrack :)
But for live testing, and convenience, I would recommend using Loopy also.

Third question...Get an iPad pro 12'. (not the 9;7) because it has more ram.
You have a CPU level into AUM, and then it really depends of which app you are playing with, it's a lottery...Some are very well done, some has really heavy CPU demands, some are buggy...
Being around 30% of CPU charge prevent most of glitches. That's why I have 3 ipad pro 12'. (and I started my tests like you with an iPad 4 ;) )
And yes, it's really exciting, I'm working on my live for months now, I have my first real track live coming soon, and OMHO, it sounds fucking good. At least, I'm very pleased with it... :)

An AUX compressor should be okay, the EQ of AUM is really good and will handle 16 tracks. What synths apps would you like to record ?
Is it just your analog external gears ?

« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 10:22:07 AM by crony »

Re: some questions before buying
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2016, 09:39:13 AM »
No, it is that different machines have a different lag when receiving midi clock. so sending just one clock can result in all machines running the same speed but being slightly delayed (sounds like two records being mixed together but not 100% properly). Also daisychaining the clock using midi through delays the signal.

the snapshots would be awesome. i used to make liveacts back in the days and if there is a bassdrum in one track more of a 909 style it will need different eq and compressor setting than a bassdrum of a 808 style. there are ways to get around not being able to automate the mixer but i really liked that feature when i had the yamaha digital console

what you say in terms of recording sounds absolutely awesome. if this really works also with synced hardware (and i dont see a point why it shouldnt) then this would be crazy. so there would be no need to record into ableton. just export the recorded wav's and import into live. very good !!!

nah an ipad pro is too large. i really want it to be portable. not really satisfied with the audio interface because of this reason either. ideally the setup would be more or less portable. i will see how far the ipad 4 gets me. in the end everything can be done in live on a laptop as well. just want to be able to get home switch everything on and start playing. dont want to wait for the mac to boot, having trouble with drivers etc. still not sure about the ipad option. really have to see how it works when using it. will use a mac with my push otherwise.

you say using a hardware compressor through an aux way? hmm the problem is that good compressors are ridiciously expensive. a distressor stereo is worth 3600 euros. too much for me. i was thinking of diy'ing a 1176 or get a clone. well havent thought this through. there are really good software compressors out there not sure if on ios though.

anyway this whole thing is really exciting. there are a couple of things i would like to see in this app. is there a feature request thread?
I think it would be great if you could group channels so you can fold and unfold them, also changing the size of the channels would be cool, swithcing inserts on and off would be awesome. maybe some tabs oin the side so you could press a tab and have just your subgroups, all outputs of one instrument, or any other useful view.

i am stunned that i can run midi in and trigger ios instruments. so i can keep sequencing with the octatrack externally and use plugins wihout any trouble. if midiremote with the bcr2000 works well this would be a really luxury digital console.

Re: some questions before buying
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2016, 10:07:39 AM »
Hmm, all I can say is that the dev of Midibus is pretty proud of his clock, and seems one of the most accurate app doing that. And it indeed does only one thing...

I just see that it can also be mapped and has tap tempo :)
http://audeonic.boards.net/thread/297/converting-cc-0xfa-0xfc-midibus
Funny, I didn't remeber doing this post, and remeber how I gave up IOS music 2 years ago, because all ecosystem was not ready yet...
http://audeonic.boards.net/thread/131/start-stop-on-station-keyboard

What I actually do is having the start/stop button of Modstep assigned to a midi pad, so Modstep generates the master the clock, Modstep is in sync to IAA, and AUM manage IAA and Link...
So while I click on that pad, Modstep starts, launch his clock, and on an other pad (assigned by midi learn into AUM), I can start/stop IAA, which controls Link as well.
It works quite well.
Instead of using a wav, you might have a simple IAA or Link app launched in AUM ( I don't know if you want to record into AUM external gears or internal synths...) let's say Modstep, and Modstep would be slaved to your ACME...

I will try again with Midibus as master clock to see if it's better than the Modstep's clock... :)

Actually, generating a perfectly stable and jitter-free MIDI clock in iOS is not hard at all. You just need to calculate correct timestamps for each clock tick sent out. Then the question is what happens to those ticks as they travel to their destination. There's a difference in hardware MIDI interfaces here, some have good precision when using the timestamps, some are bad. And then, of course the receiver must handle the timing accurately.

My app SECTOR also produces a perfect MIDI clock, and can sync to IAA. So it can be used inside AUM to follow the AUM transport and generate a MIDI clock for syncing other stuff. Then you just tap play/stop/rewind in AUM and it should all "just work".

Re: some questions before buying
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2016, 10:12:45 AM »
sending just one clock isnt going to do the trick as every hardware with an internal sequencer has a different offset. so sending to a machinedrum needs another offset than sending to an electribe for example. if there is just one stream of midi clock you wont be able to sync the boxes using a midi splitter.

Good point! When I add MIDI clock output to AUM, I should add multiple clock outputs with individual offsets, that can be routed to individual MIDI ports.

Quote
ohh one last question - why aren't there any snapshots? when doing something live it would be so cool if this was possible so the mixing stuff could just be controlled by my octatrack sending program changes to the ipad running aum which then switches the setting. obviously adding or removing modules would make the sound skip but I am probably going to keep things simple anyway. eq, compressor, some send effects and maybe some limiting on the master.

Switching between sessions with MIDI program change is on my TODO. Or snapshots, that only store the parameter values (for AUM itself and any nodes/plugins (except IAA apps)). Or both.

Quote
edit 2: having another thread regarding this topic on elektronauts. how would i record in sync? lets say the app and my hardware run in sync. how can i record so the start and endpoint of the file will be synced and where do i record?

Please read the built in manual and let me know if anything isn't clear (and I'll improve the manual if needed!)

Cheers

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Re: some questions before buying
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2016, 10:18:58 AM »
Hé hé...You'll get an iPad pro at the end...But, you'll see by yourself...
Do yourself a favor, get the full package of these :
http://kymatica.com/Software/AUFX

Quote
you say using a hardware compressor through an aux way?

No, I say you can insert effects as AUX, which is an Apple technology, which basically allows you to run multiple instance of an audio app. That means, if you get an AUX compressor, you may insert it on each track, with the parameters dedicated on each of them.
Some AUX apps : ISem, Bassalicious, Korvpressor...
You should check apps listed here :
https://audiob.us/apps/

State saving etc...Is important to have to help you constructing your AUM presets...
And OMHO, there are really capable compressors and effects available on IOS...Some of them reminds me the good old Ensoniq DP4+, not in term of sound, but in term of creativity and "amazingness" :)

You can post new threads with your feature requests, as I do...Forum is here also for that...

Quote
I think it would be great if you could group channels so you can fold and unfold them, swithcing inserts on and off would be awesome. maybe some tabs oin the side so you could press a tab and have just your subgroups, all outputs of one instrument, or any other useful view.

I love the idea ! +1

Quote
also changing the size of the channels would be cool
Useless if your previous request is heard ?
That's also one of the many reason you'll get an iPad pro...

Quote
i am stunned that i can run midi in and trigger ios instruments. so i can keep sequencing with the octatrack externally and use plugins wihout any trouble. if midiremote with the bcr2000 works well this would be a really luxury digital console.

May I ask what is your sound card connected to your iPad ? Midi clock is one thing, but latency will bug you very soon...So yes it's a real luxurious digital console, it blows away all I had before...But this has a cost : CPU, CPU, CPU, RAM, RAM, RAM...


Re: some questions before buying
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2016, 10:24:44 AM »
the snapshots would be awesome. i used to make liveacts back in the days and if there is a bassdrum in one track more of a 909 style it will need different eq and compressor setting than a bassdrum of a 808 style. there are ways to get around not being able to automate the mixer but i really liked that feature when i had the yamaha digital console

The mixer and all the parameters are automatable via MIDI cc, so if you have a controller that can send a bunch of CCs you could use that for snapshot loading (no creation/deletion of channels or nodes though).

Quote
you say using a hardware compressor through an aux way? hmm the problem is that good compressors are ridiciously expensive. a distressor stereo is worth 3600 euros. too much for me. i was thinking of diy'ing a 1176 or get a clone. well havent thought this through. there are really good software compressors out there not sure if on ios though.

AUX in this context refers to Audio Unit eXtension, the format for AU plugins on iOS. That's why I named the Sends in AUM as Bus Sends and not AUX (which would be more familiar for users coming from hardware mixers).

I might add a really simple built-in compressor to AUM that can be used per channel/bus.

Quote
I think it would be great if you could group channels so you can fold and unfold them, also changing the size of the channels would be cool, swithcing inserts on and off would be awesome. maybe some tabs oin the side so you could press a tab and have just your subgroups, all outputs of one instrument, or any other useful view.

You can swipe effect nodes (inserts) to the left, this bypasses them completely in the signal chain.
Groups/pages for better navigation is a very common request, and also on my list. Good idea to use tabs on the side!

Re: some questions before buying
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2016, 11:16:18 AM »
Wow, what a great support!!! Thumbs up!!!

I am using a focusrite scarlett 18i20 with a 8 channel adat converter attached to it. It isn't the best Interface. still have a hammerfall dsp with multiface but no possibillity to connect it to modern Laptops :(

If you would add multiple midiclock Outputs with different Offsets , jitterfree and the app runs rocksolid wow... can't imagine really what this would mean. I certainly would think about selling my erm multiclock - that is for sure. however it would be crucial to be able to mix midi data from another source into the clock stream (i need a clock for my gear to run in sync but I also need the abillity to send program changes for example so I can Change Patterns with one Action on several machines). Computerbased DAW's suck at midi clock so there is a desperate need for a (professional) Software solution. If you want I am happy to test with my Hardware and record the Output into aum as well as live (which then should sync to aums link Signal) so the Timing can be analyzed and compared to using several clock configurations.

regarding the snapshots - if there was such a function and I could just map a snapshot to a midi Parameter this would be perfect. i could select them with a Controller or even better send them using my octatrack so the Settings change as soon as needed. obviously there still have to be some "bridges" to be built between the tracks but it would be really cool. For me a fade function would be good but to be honest I think not many People would use it as it just makes sense when playing live.

I also got your push compressor which does look really versatile. havent had the time to use it yet. a simple (sidechainable?) compressor within aum would still be cool though (maybe needing less resources). Not sure which Kind of Music you make. in electronic Music lots of signals are goingthrough a sidechained compressor. it isn' about transients and body but more a way to get an "program dependent", rhythmical  volume Automation which helps glueing the sounds together adding to the groove and pointing the listeners Focus onto certain elements.

sorry for asking the obvious. haven't read the maual. It isn't that there is something missing but i find the Format rather unattractive without any Pictures etc. As I have used a couple of DAW's and mixing desks before I assumed that most can be found out by Trial and error (the gui and the handling  are excellent by the way!)

cool that Navigation, grouping etc is on the list. :)

not sure about the ipad pro though. However if the app does what it can the way that it is proper useable I really might think about this being the centerpiece and using live just for Arrangement and final mixing - then i could think of it :)

even with folding channels into Groups or making the inserts invisible it would be cool to be able to Change the channel size. definitely not the most impostant Thing but still nice to have

Again let me say. I am stunned by the concept and what is on the table so far. Also the support is outstanding. I can imagine this to get really big.

Can't wait for the Weekend to use this more than 5 minutes.!!!



« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 11:30:23 AM by Yentz Jensus »

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Re: some questions before buying
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2016, 01:32:02 PM »
Quote
regarding the snapshots

Keep in mind that it needs time to load a preset...Minimum 3 sec...And if something goes wrong, it can take a minute to fix things, if you're skilled...

Keep also in mind that you can create AUX as AUX (in the audio world of analog mixtable :) ) into AUM. They just have to be IAA compliant...

Quote
Again let me say. I am stunned by the concept and what is on the table so far. Also the support is outstanding. I can imagine this to get really big.

You might be interested in registering here :
https://forum.audiob.us/

Use google to search into this forum. It's a goldmine, plenty of enthusiasts IOS music users and lovers. (and lots of people having a huge background in music making...)
Enjoy :)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 05:57:10 PM by crony »