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DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy

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DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« on: February 25, 2016, 12:21:44 PM »
Hi,
I am finding that DrumJam is crashing in AUM.
I've enabled inter-app sync and left its input and output connections deselected.
Virtual midi send midi clock is deselected and allow connections is set to ON.

Also, with Loopy playing a simple loop at 66bpm (set in AUM also) the audio is very choppy at 256 buffer size.
There are no nasty dropouts like I was getting sometimes in Audiobus, but this sounds more glitchy.
Should AUM's buffer size take over settings in other apps?

I'm using an iPhone 5s for the moment, waiting for the iPad3 to come out :)

I also want to understand the basic paradigm of using AUM. Generally you would not expect to also be using the Audiobus app at the same time, right?
I have been running AUM standalone with IAA units rather than Audiobus source.

And one other thing: Since you are probably one of the most expert people on this subject.. Do you have any thoughts about how to improve latency in general?
Will the latency compensation work for live looping for example, with drums or guitar where timing is crucial.
I have an RME Babyface Pro (that runs in Class Compliant mode) which seems to need even higher buffer than system audio!

Thanks for an amazing app and great effects too. I look forward to trying out the iPad only apps :)


Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2016, 01:52:46 PM »
Hi,
I am finding that DrumJam is crashing in AUM.
I've enabled inter-app sync and left its input and output connections deselected.
Virtual midi send midi clock is deselected and allow connections is set to ON.

I've sent a mail to Sonosaurus, also downloading DrumJam right now so I can try it out myself!

Quote
Also, with Loopy playing a simple loop at 66bpm (set in AUM also) the audio is very choppy at 256 buffer size.
There are no nasty dropouts like I was getting sometimes in Audiobus, but this sounds more glitchy.
Should AUM's buffer size take over settings in other apps?

I'm using an iPhone 5s for the moment, waiting for the iPad3 to come out :)

There is only one buffer size in iOS, apps can't use different buffer sizes. Which app get to decide depends on the order you start the apps.
Sounds like you are short on CPU power, which might be because of other apps running, maybe invisible in the background because of starting them from AUM but then never switching them to foreground.

Try a reboot and see if that helps!

Quote
I also want to understand the basic paradigm of using AUM. Generally you would not expect to also be using the Audiobus app at the same time, right?
I have been running AUM standalone with IAA units rather than Audiobus source.

It depends fully on how you like to work! AUM is designed to integrate well with Audiobus, running together. But it can also be used stand-alone. One situation where Audiobus is needed would be if you'd like to route the audio out from AUM into apps like Loopy, that acts as Audiobus output apps but have no built-in Inter-App Audio hosting by themselves.

Quote
And one other thing: Since you are probably one of the most expert people on this subject.. Do you have any thoughts about how to improve latency in general?
Will the latency compensation work for live looping for example, with drums or guitar where timing is crucial.
I have an RME Babyface Pro (that runs in Class Compliant mode) which seems to need even higher buffer than system audio!

Thanks for an amazing app and great effects too. I look forward to trying out the iPad only apps :)

Latency is affected by the audio interface you're using, and the buffer size. You can tap the "DSP %" label in AUM to see the current output audio latency.
Some audio interfaces has very low latency, some not.

Note that latency compensation *adds* latency, it does not remove latency. Latency compensation works by adding equal amounts of delay at all mix points in the signal chain, so that everything lines up at the end. This is used to compensate latency added by effects, such as the built-in lookahead limiter, or my AUFX apps (if their limiter is enabled).

Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2016, 01:57:14 PM »
Hi,
I am finding that DrumJam is crashing in AUM.
I've enabled inter-app sync and left its input and output connections deselected.
Virtual midi send midi clock is deselected and allow connections is set to ON.

I've sent a mail to Sonosaurus, also downloading DrumJam right now so I can try it out myself!

Ok, I just tried DrumJam in AUM and it works fine here, no crashes, and it syncs to start/stop and current tempo. The only issue I see is that it looses sync when tempo changes.

Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2016, 03:27:34 PM »
I am finding that DrumJam is crashing in AUM.
I've enabled inter-app sync and left its input and output connections deselected.
Virtual midi send midi clock is deselected and allow connections is set to ON.

Hi, I'm the developer of DrumJam. I've been doing a lot of fixes here and am about to submit a new version that has better IAA support, as well as Link and other stuff. You are welcome to join the testflight beta to see if it fixes your issues, and more importantly to see if it *doesn't* in which case I can try to track it down. PM me with your email if you are interested!

Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2016, 03:42:43 PM »
@Jonatan Thanks for the detailed response, it clears up a lot of things.
The use of Audiobus kind of makes sense, I need to think about that some more :)
I must admit the simpler the better for me so I can be creative and not get confused (which really happens easily :P)

So, the latency compensation works for timing of all apps, but wouldnt change the experience of live monitoring.
I wonder if there is any prospect of live monitoring latency improving. That's originally why I bought the Babyface Pro for playing with a drumkit. It has the best drivers and the lowest latency available (on OSX). Now I'm getting into iOS (and very happy to not use the laptop for music creation) that interface operates in CC mode and so the best drivers around are not usable.
Which audio interfaces offer proprietary low latency drivers for iOS?



Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2016, 03:43:23 PM »
@ Sonosaurus. Thank you so much! PM sent..

Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2016, 04:01:39 PM »
So, the latency compensation works for timing of all apps, but wouldnt change the experience of live monitoring.
I wonder if there is any prospect of live monitoring latency improving. That's originally why I bought the Babyface Pro for playing with a drumkit. It has the best drivers and the lowest latency available (on OSX). Now I'm getting into iOS (and very happy to not use the laptop for music creation) that interface operates in CC mode and so the best drivers around are not usable.
Which audio interfaces offer proprietary low latency drivers for iOS?

What latency does it show when you tap the "DSP %" in AUM? When I connect my Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 it says 1.02 ms output latency, which is amazingly good (if it's true). You also need to add the buffer size duration to that to get the true output latency.

Regarding live monitoring, for recording I think the best thing is to do direct monitoring on your interface, or acoustically in the room if you're recording mics. That means zero latency. If you monitor through the iOS device, you need to minimize latency to not get dizzy hearing yourself delayed: using audio interfaces with low latency, keeping a low buffer size (but not too low because it will give dropouts!), and not using any latency-inducing effects in the chain, such as AUM's lookahead limiter. Such effects introduce a delay not only on the channel they are on, but on all channels! That's what latency compensation is about.

Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2016, 04:18:38 PM »
Hey all, I got a bunch of crashes also, depending on which output I use, I work around t by using link to midi and sync via midi. Also the  the beats section in drum jam gets stuck on 8.

Got it to work a couple of minutes though


Running iOS 9 iPad Air 2

Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2016, 04:31:42 PM »
I rebooted and opened my saved session. DrumJam (teest version) opens fine but Loopy fails to load correctly.
Could it be something in Loopy settings?

My latency reads:
buffer size 256 frames
buffer duration: 5.8ms

Device
input 12.49ms
output 12.93ms
latency compensation: 19.98ms
total: 32.9ms
DSP hovering around 18%

Babyface Pro
input 1ms
output 1.02ms
latency compensation 19.98ms
total 21ms
DSP hovering around 14%

It's better with the Babyface, but Loopy is still a bit glitchy/choppy.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 04:45:34 PM by optimyst »

Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2016, 04:39:42 PM »
Ok yes, when I removed Dub compensation went down to 0, and the latency does appear to be gone or low enough not to notice.
For live stuff I would really want to be using an effect or at least compressor/limiter though..
Is there any way to get that 21ms down? With Push DSP is around 20% and it makes Loopy a lot choppier. DrumJam is stable though.

Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2016, 05:13:56 PM »
Ok yes, when I removed Dub compensation went down to 0, and the latency does appear to be gone or low enough not to notice.
For live stuff I would really want to be using an effect or at least compressor/limiter though..
Is there any way to get that 21ms down? With Push DSP is around 20% and it makes Loopy a lot choppier. DrumJam is stable though.

Yes! Turn off the internal limiter in AUFX (Menu, Settings). Then there's no latency added.

Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2016, 11:16:42 PM »
I am finding that DrumJam is crashing in AUM.
I've enabled inter-app sync and left its input and output connections deselected.
Virtual midi send midi clock is deselected and allow connections is set to ON.

Hi, I'm the developer of DrumJam. I've been doing a lot of fixes here and am about to submit a new version that has better IAA support, as well as Link and other stuff. You are welcome to join the testflight beta to see if it fixes your issues, and more importantly to see if it *doesn't* in which case I can try to track it down. PM me with your email if you are interested!

Thats good to hear ... DJ crashes for me too. When I load it should i use the IAA Instrument or Generator instance? Additonally does DJ have any internal settings to get it to sync with AUM?

Thanks  in advance

Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2016, 04:09:36 AM »
The DrumJam version in the store has several issues regarding IAA. The one about to be released is working much better with AUM and everything else. PM me your email and I'll hook you up with the beta if you want!

Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2016, 03:52:48 PM »
Awesome support guys. Removing the lookahead limiter in Push allows me to still use the noise gate and compression (without unmusical monitoring latency) which is fantastic.

Checking the new DrumJam version now..

Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2016, 01:32:50 PM »
The DrumJam update fixed the weird retriggering on tempo change. Great :)

Also stuttering Loopy was fixed by turning off inter app audio in Loopy settings. It seems stable now!

Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2016, 01:43:45 PM »
It seems that DrumJam and Push will not load in AUM if its already running, and Loopy will not load if it is NOT already running. Or possibly its random whether they load successfully or not?!
Is this expected?

Also I closed the apps and launched AUM trying to set buffer to 128, and it wouldnt allow it. I had to reboot. Im guessing there's a bug to do with launching apps and closing them in the background?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 01:53:57 PM by optimyst »

Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2016, 01:57:43 PM »
It seems that DrumJam and Push will not load in AUM if its already running, and Loopy will not load if it is NOT already running. Or possibly its random whether they load successfully or not?!
Is this expected?

Some apps don't have a correct implementation of how they start their audio when being launched via IAA. They need to be started manually first, and then loaded.

The other way around is probably the "IAA Zombie" bug in a different variant, sometimes you need to terminate apps that were already running before you load them into a host.

Quote
Also I closed the apps and launched AUM trying to set buffer to 128, and it wouldnt allow it. I had to reboot. Im guessing there's a bug to do with launching apps and closing them in the background?

Yes, this is a sign of invisible zombie apps still running in the background. Reboot or use the "Clear RAM" trick:

- hold power button until "slide to shutdown" appears
- then release the power button
- now hold down the home button only, until the home screen appears

Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2016, 03:32:09 PM »
Thanks for the Clear RAM trick. Possibly that's what was also causing Loopy to emit a high pitched buzz when plugged into the Babyface Pro after the apps were already running.

I am now finding that Loopy doesnt sync start without inter-app audio sync switched to ON in Loopy settings (which temporarily fixed the choppiness - maybe it was just running at the same tempo and in sync)
It is unusable in AUM at present, because of the extreme choppiness of the audio signal :(

Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2016, 04:01:04 PM »
As a general feedback for developers of audio apps, I am finding that the whole sync thing is way too confusing.
Each app has its own settings for midi sync, clock destinations (with virtual midi and other individual apps) and ableton link, and each app seems to do it differently.

In Loopy I have IAA sync on and ableton link off, clock destinations set to none. It works, but horribly.
When I switch inter app audio sync off once the AUM clock is running it sounds fine, so I guess that's narrowing it down.
Maybe a bug in Loopy's IAA?


Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2016, 04:54:54 PM »
As a general feedback for developers of audio apps, I am finding that the whole sync thing is way too confusing.
Each app has its own settings for midi sync, clock destinations (with virtual midi and other individual apps) and ableton link, and each app seems to do it differently.

In Loopy I have IAA sync on and ableton link off, clock destinations set to none. It works, but horribly.
When I switch inter app audio sync off once the AUM clock is running it sounds fine, so I guess that's narrowing it down.
Maybe a bug in Loopy's IAA?

Seems that Loopy's IAA sync is having trouble then.. In AUM I'm currently sending the exact tempo for each render buffer to the synced nodes. This might fluctuate with small amounts for each render cycle. However, some nodes don't like that, so I'm changing it to send the stable session tempo instead, hopefully that will solve things!

Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2016, 12:44:59 PM »
I managed to get a stable session going by using Audiobus with Link. Somehow Audiobus seems to load apps more easily too..
Does AUM standalone offer Link support? I didnt see anything about that in options. It seemed to be using IAA which was what wasnt working so well. I will look out for the update.

Audiobus and AUM also works great for bussing Loopy tracks with fx, mixing app levels and recording the output.
I just purchased Audioshare as well and hopefully that will streamline session recording and generate more ideas!




Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2016, 02:10:36 PM »
I managed to get a stable session going by using Audiobus with Link. Somehow Audiobus seems to load apps more easily too..
Does AUM standalone offer Link support? I didnt see anything about that in options. It seemed to be using IAA which was what wasnt working so well. I will look out for the update.

Audiobus and AUM also works great for bussing Loopy tracks with fx, mixing app levels and recording the output.
I just purchased Audioshare as well and hopefully that will streamline session recording and generate more ideas!

AUM supports Link, yes. Tap the tempo, then the three dots, and enable Ableton Link.
Audiobus does not implement Ableton Link in itself, as far as I know, since it has no syncing mechanism or clock to be synced.

When you say it's easier to load apps in Audiobus, do you mean the cases where the app disconnects (turns red) in AUM when you load it? This is because of a common bug in many IAA apps - they don't start their audio engine when launched in the background (as they should, stated by Apple themselves when they introduced Inter-App Audio in iOS 7).
Please report this to the developers of those apps! And while waiting for their fixes, a work around is to launch their app manually, turn on "background audio" in it, and then load it into AUM.

Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2016, 12:31:22 PM »
Ah, thanks I had missed that!
So I can use AUM standalone now if I start the transport for each app individually and set the master tempo in AUM.
That works fine for what I want to do.
Audiobus seems to launch the apps by requiring that you tap on them first, it launches and then bounces back into Audiobus screen.
It's probably the same thing but maybe a bit more intuitive :)

Hopefully I wont have to look at IAA sync anymore! Link works really well :)

Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2016, 12:55:29 PM »
Ah, thanks I had missed that!
So I can use AUM standalone now if I start the transport for each app individually and set the master tempo in AUM.
That works fine for what I want to do.
Audiobus seems to launch the apps by requiring that you tap on them first, it launches and then bounces back into Audiobus screen.
It's probably the same thing but maybe a bit more intuitive :)

Hopefully I wont have to look at IAA sync anymore! Link works really well :)

Yeah, Audiobus starts the apps via IAA, and then *also* switches the app to foreground, then the Audiobus SDK makes it switch back to Audiobus. IAA in itself does not have this mechanism, but assumes that IAA apps are just launched in the background. Personally I find it quite annoying with the switch back and forth, especially if loading a session with many apps!

However, it's exactly because of this Audiobus auto-app-switching that many IAA apps has this bug: They start their audio when the app comes to foreground, not when the app is actually launched. This works fine in Audiobus, since it auto-switches to the app, but not in other hosts.

Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2016, 12:40:19 AM »
Hi Jonathan,
I didn't try (yet) to launch all my apps in AUM but I must say that I can't launch Drumjam. I tried every options (instrument, loops, main output...), but it just doesn't work. Best scenario, DrumJam opens, but I can't play the pads and when I press play on AUM iaa panel, DrumJam freezes.
I red that you don't have any problem at all and it works for you (that makes me sad in a sort of way...), but on both my iPad Air and iPad Pro, I can't launch it.
Would you have any suggestions ? I red Sonosaurus post too, which is promising, but if it works for you, perhaps there's something I'm missing...
Thank you for you help and many thanks for your wonderful app !

Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2016, 05:28:10 AM »
Hi Jonathan,
I didn't try (yet) to launch all my apps in AUM but I must say that I can't launch Drumjam. I tried every options (instrument, loops, main output...), but it just doesn't work. Best scenario, DrumJam opens, but I can't play the pads and when I press play on AUM iaa panel, DrumJam freezes.
I red that you don't have any problem at all and it works for you (that makes me sad in a sort of way...), but on both my iPad Air and iPad Pro, I can't launch it.
Would you have any suggestions ? I red Sonosaurus post too, which is promising, but if it works for you, perhaps there's something I'm missing...
Thank you for you help and many thanks for your wonderful app !

I'm experiencing the same issues as you with DrumJam in AUM. Hopefully when DrumJam is updated, it will fix these issues.

Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2016, 10:26:25 AM »
Hi Jonathan,
I didn't try (yet) to launch all my apps in AUM but I must say that I can't launch Drumjam. I tried every options (instrument, loops, main output...), but it just doesn't work. Best scenario, DrumJam opens, but I can't play the pads and when I press play on AUM iaa panel, DrumJam freezes.
I red that you don't have any problem at all and it works for you (that makes me sad in a sort of way...), but on both my iPad Air and iPad Pro, I can't launch it.
Would you have any suggestions ? I red Sonosaurus post too, which is promising, but if it works for you, perhaps there's something I'm missing...
Thank you for you help and many thanks for your wonderful app !

Did you try launching Drumjam manually first, and make sure it has "background audio" enabled, then loading it in AUM?

Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2016, 03:39:01 AM »
Hi Jonathan,
I didn't try (yet) to launch all my apps in AUM but I must say that I can't launch Drumjam. I tried every options (instrument, loops, main output...), but it just doesn't work. Best scenario, DrumJam opens, but I can't play the pads and when I press play on AUM iaa panel, DrumJam freezes.
I red that you don't have any problem at all and it works for you (that makes me sad in a sort of way...), but on both my iPad Air and iPad Pro, I can't launch it.
Would you have any suggestions ? I red Sonosaurus post too, which is promising, but if it works for you, perhaps there's something I'm missing...
Thank you for you help and many thanks for your wonderful app !

Did you try launching Drumjam manually first, and make sure it has "background audio" enabled, then loading it in AUM?

I have and after a few seconds of playing the pads, they freeze in DrumJam.

Re: DrumJam crashing in AUM and choppy audio in Loopy
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2016, 07:26:40 PM »
Latest Drumjam release 1.3.3 now with Ableton Link  works a treat - problem solved for me.